Business/ Art Podcast EP.1 with Ellie Claughton

Where to find Ellie:

X: @eclaughton

Transcript:

Tom: Welcome to the Business Art Podcast, a new podcast created by BAP to try and open up the conversation about how money and art are interacting right now. My name is Tom Ryalls, and on every episode I'll be having a chat with someone from the arts world about the work they are doing and what their experience of this is. 

This week, we are joined by Ellie Claughton, who is the Executive Director at Improbable, Chair of ZooCo and also on the board of trustees at Oxford Playhouse. She has also previously worked for Paines Plough, Boundless, Barrel Organ and Lung and at one point was actually my housemate a few years ago. 

*Whoosh Sound Effect*

Ellie, how are you doing?

Ellie: I'm good. I'm good. I mean, the sun's finally shining. So that's always a positive thing. But yeah, just cracking on really? I'm good.

Tom: I yeah, I feel like we're both on the high from seeing Girls Allowed at the weekend as well, which is..

Ellie: Yeah, I agree. I think tiredness, emotional tiredness is really hitting this week, and equally feeling happy as well, after that incredible experience.

Tom: Haha. Wonderful. So we're here to talk a little bit about sort of art and money and how they're interacting. And I've got some questions, and I thought I'd just kick off with asking a little bit about you. So you've been sort of a theatre producer, and in various leadership positions for the last 10 years now? And do you … Have you seen a difference in how money and art or interaction in that time? And if so, what, what has changed in the last 10 years, do you think?

Ellie: I mean, it's probably useful to give a bit of context, before I answer that question. I mean, I think my career has been an interesting one in that, when I first started, you know, obviously, I was doing the classic producing shows at the fringe or whatever, but my first sort of main job was working for Headlong who are an NPO. And I was the administrator there. And you know, even though that was a, it was a admin do a bit of everything job, you were working with a company that, at the time, had a sort of substantial amount of money. So when you were thinking about press nights, and all that sort of stuff, like you had a lot to play with. And once I left that organisation, I went straight into freelancing for like five years. So when I was learning what it meant to run a company and to be an ED, kind of without, without having the actual title itself, I was working, like, from the bare bones of having no money at all, to growing these companies to becoming charities and NPOs in some instances, and all that sort of thing. So I guess, you know, my perspective is that I've always been like, oh, gosh, money is really difficult, and it's really hard to find and the avenues for are quite, quite limited until you become a charity or build those relationships. So once I, yeah, once I started at Paines Plough, oh, I then went, Oh, wow. That's a lot of money. Which, you know, I know, in the grand scheme of things, and now that I sort of run those big organisations, you know, it's not, but I've sort of started from, I've started from a place of having no money at all. So I've always been quite good at sort of going, how can we make this work? You know, I think that also for those organisations that are run as a freelancer, the pandemic was a really weird moment, you know? We were getting access to these emergency grants, the CRF funding, so that in a way actually sort of catapulted the organisations into a different, actually more sustainable place, which, considering it was a global pandemic, and the industry was on its knees, felt quite interesting and strange. 

Tom: I think I think there was like this time when it was really common for smaller organisations to exist, just getting project grants all the time, and that kind of sustained smaller organisations. And then for a lot of those that were like, around as the pandemic kicked off, that got CRF funding, all of a sudden, I think it was just like, really interesting catalyst and pivot point to move into either become an NPO or getting core funding because your turnover increase in some scenarios and those kinds of things, you know, you could actually have somebody being paid to do a thing for a year, instead of being like, we've got three months, and then we don't know. Do you, do you think it could, do you think it could happen? Now, you know, some of you're starting a company now? Do you think it's the same as when you were doing it like 10 years ago and building companies? How has that changed?

Ellie: I think, I do think it's a lot more difficult. Now, I must admit, I sort of have conversations with producers or kind of aspiring exec directors, and they sort of say, Tell me about your journey. And I tell them, and then as I'm telling the story, I go, god, that was that was hard, but actually, it felt achievable in some sort of sense, I think because we were able to make the project grants work, you know, do bits of organisational development, all of that sort of stuff. It sort of sparked those things. I think also, you know, when I was working at Breach, we had access to commission money, like it wasn't loads of money, but we were sort of piecing things together. And I think that I think I think companies in their sort of earlier years now are finding it difficult to, you know, do the Edinburgh Fringe thing, or do the first show thing, which, you know, gives a lot of interest to the company, and then sustained from there, you know, Barrel Organ, Lung and Breach; all three of them, were these, you know, known companies in the sector, these emerging artists, and so people were sort of, yeah, they were jumping at us all and going, okay, how can we collaborate with you. And so that enabled me to sort of think in a more strategic way, each one of those companies went in a completely different direction in terms of the things that they focused on. But I was able to, I kind of have this sort of leeway to be able to do that. I mean, don't get me wrong, it was really, really hard. And, you know, we will constantly fighting for, you know, Arts Council grants, and all that kind of thing. But I do think that I do think it is harder now.

Tom: Yeah, I think that like cushion of commissioning money is a bit rarer as well, like, you know, there was a time when a lot of arts organisations really wanted to collaborate with emerging companies and things like that. And I think I think a lot of arts organisations want to now, but I think it's like less slack in the budget to be like, Oh, hey, we could give you a cheeky two grand to cheeky five grand here, and those kinds of things to take risk on on things a lot of the time. And so like, actually, sure, you can, even if you get your first show up and go and get loads of attention, but then what is the next step after that, like the ecosystem around the next step as well about becoming more established doesn't exist in such a strong way? I think. 

Ellie: Yeah. And I think that that's the sort of crux of the issue that we find with artist development programs, right? It's like, inject a bit of cash support someone for a year or a couple of years. But then what's the sort of long term? Yeah, long term strategy for it. And if you don't have someone, like me, you know, a producer or company producer to sort of guide you on that way, it's, it's really difficult. And I think that you know, even finding the companies that you want to work with, as a producer was always it's always hard. It's a very much a dating process. But I think, you know, that I think me coming up in that way, has made me a better ED now. Because, you know, all of the companies are facing those kind of struggles now. So you know, when we're booking a tour, like we've just booked Perfect Show For Rachel, that's just happened. Like, that was a really tricky thing to put together, because people don't have the cash to front it. And, you know, to allow that piece of work to go on. So I'm sort of I'm now in this position, where I'm, I'm sort of cutting things and trying to find new sources of revenue at the same time and think about things really differently. And I think, yeah, I think that if I hadn't had that experience, I think I would have found that a lot harder. But I'm able to sort of like bend and flex to it, which is sort of a really useful thing to be able to do.

Tom: Yeah, I think it's interesting to consider, like the value of being a freelance producer in a venture running a bigger organisation. You know, it's not a story we hear very often. And I mean, now your dating process has gotten to the point where you're in a long term relationship with Improbable as their executive director. And I think on the surface improbable, appears to be sort of bucking the trend of difficulties we see in the sector a little bit, you know, you're opening Totoro in the West End, you've just bought Perfect Show For Rachel back with ZooCo at the Barbican, your annual conference, Devoted and Disgruntled is as strong and, as strong as ever, you know, whether it's … to what extent it's true is another question. But what, what do you think makes everything so possible for Improbable at the moment, you know, what's happening at Improbable that means that you have all of this kind of freedom to these big projects? Do you think?

Ellie: I mean, one of the things is the artistic team, like genuinely, like, we wouldn't be able to have all those opportunities, or to do all of that stuff without the drive of Lee and Phelim … and Matilda, you know, they are very much sort of steering away for doing things differently. And I think that when you have … when you have CEOs and artistic directors that are doing that, and to work in open space and work in a way where, where they're not hierarchical, you know, obviously, we can't get rid of hierarchy completely. We're like noticing it rather than getting rid of it. But when you are in that position, as an exec director, you feel very much empowered to be doing your job in your own way. There's no like structure, that they're like, we have to do this, this and this, you're sort of given your own. Yeah, it's it's your own sort of responsibility and sort of agency to sort of figure that stuff out. So I would say that they're like, that's like number one. And I think that, you know, that sort of speaks to this, this sense of thing, a lot of venues and things like that turning to the creative director model and all that kind of thing, I, I personally think that the art has to lead. And, and having them in that position sort of inspires me to be thinking about things in different ways. I think that, you know, Improbable, we've never kind of become too, too big, if that makes sense? So the way that we've kind of got around that is that we have big producing partnerships. So you know, Totoro is with the RSC, we do a lot of opera with the Met Opera and Factory International. And by having those partnerships in which the bigger organisations are taking the brunt of the financial risk, and we're bringing the creativity, it's like a different form of co producing model. Now, that being said, the sort of downside to that is that we don't see any financial return when there is one, because of the deals that are set up and all that sort of stuff, which I think is a is an interesting model that we should be thinking about just generally in the sector, like how can those smaller companies who, you know, in the next few years are going to be the ones that are looking to produce the work, which is something that, you know, Improbable, or trying to do a bit more of. You know, how can we be financially sustainable enough to actually step up into that role, and be taken seriously, and actually have a seat at the table. So I think that, you know, we're small enough and agile enough to be able to sort of build those big partnerships, but without taking that financial risk. I also think that, from the from the off like it, from what I can understand of Improbable, I mean, I've been here a year now, we have quite a sort of mixed funding models. So you know, it's Arts Council, like philanthropic, earned income via our open space stuff. You know, it's, it's a real mix of things. And actually, for me, I'm kind of always, I always feel a bit nervous if I go into an organisation, I'm like, oh, that's where the main source of funding is coming from. That’s, makes me feel quite, quite worried. Because what if that falls apart? Like, what if that drops? You know, I think that it allows us to sort of be a bit more agile, I think that, you know, when we're, we're just trying things differently, I think, but I would say that it's, I keep describing as this, this NPO period as the period in which we survive. The next NPO period, you know, fingers crossed, we'll be when we thrive, it's like, we're testing things out at the moment, we're going like that works, we're getting a bit of money for that, that producing model can work. You know, we're sort of as you know, we're sort of delving a bit more into trusts and foundations and how the board can support fundraising. Like, I feel like I'm really, I've got lots of mini projects when it comes to income. And I'm hoping that I'll be able to understand in the next couple of years, like actually what bears fruit and then sort of take that forward, yeah, into the next stage of the company, which, you know, we're building a building. So I've got to be able to think about, think about how to kind of increase the turnover quite dramatically in order to achieve that.

Tom: Yeah, it sounds very exciting. And I just want to come back very quickly to something you said a few minutes ago, when you were talking about sort of how the artistic leadership gives you freedom as an ED, and sort of its, you know, the relation to open space. So, Improbable uses open space a lot, which for people who don't know, is the sort of, it's often called a social technology, or like a social facilitation technique to kind of summon up a space in which people have a lot of agency in order to decide what's going to happen. And it's not a story we hear often where, like, the artistic process of a company, then gets applied to the business side of things to go actually, how can we use that? How can we use practice, which is regenerative, and all of those kinds of things. I wonder if you just talk like a briefly a little bit more about how the sort of artistic practice is enabling you on making things more possible for you as an ED, when you're thinking about resourcing and fundraising, and that might be open space, or it might be sort of like the the sort of iterative development stuff that you do.

Ellie: I would say, from a sort of general organisational perspective, it means that, fundamentally, you do not feel like the pressure is all on you. And when you feel that it makes your life a lot easier, we have, you know, conversations about every aspect of the organisation together, you know, in open space, kind of, in, in formations of open space, and actually, when everybody is able to contribute in some sort of way that they that then means that they can go off and do their part of the job, knowing like I'm feeling empowered to be able to do that. So, you know, I've learned so much in the past year from the artistic team, just purely by listening to them and applying their different ways of thinking, different sort of models of doing stuff and actually That's it sort of opened my brain up a little bit. So, you know, rather than feeling like I need to sit in a spreadsheet for 24 hours a day, like I'm able to sort of, you know, I spend a lot of time not actually on my desk, like dreaming and thinking. And then I tried to sort, like, try to make it fun in a way like it. It's an artistic project, like, people think that being an ED is like, boring. It's not like it's a creative job. Like, I've always sort of said that my job is always creative. And when you apply that, and you're sort of going, Okay, well, if this is what we're aiming for, and this is what we are at the moment, like, what's the story that we're telling, and what's the journey that we're going on? And so I think that, you know, even doing that, like, it's so helpful, and really, really useful. I think that yeah, I would say that that's how we kind of apply open space. I think that, you know, we, we don't get it completely right, there's still some structures that we have to, you know, adhere to, like board meetings, and all that kind of thing, but it definitely helps.

Tom: Yeah, great, amazing. Thank you so much for that, I'm just thinking sort of about that idea of like the reality of things. You know, if I look at your charity commission accounts, and for people that don't know, the Charity Commission, is a website, you can go on all charities are required every year to put their accounts on there, there's lots of information you can find out about companies. Improbable’s turnover floats around about 500 to 600k a year. And it was a bit of a dip at the beginning of the pandemic. Now, I work with a lot of companies in this range. And I sort of call it the sticky place a lot of the time because the company is not really small enough to be at the top of the priority list is small or community focused grants are generally seen, you've got to be under about 250k turnover to be a priority for like, National Lottery community funding and postcode society and things like that. But also, the turnover isn't necessarily large enough to have a whole philanthropy team working on something and you know, there isn't really the core capacity to have a really mature commercial income function a lot of the time that is done in a really substantial way. How, how do you think as Improbable, you're managing this sort of sticky place? And, you know, what kind of things are you doing in terms of non grant income?

Ellie: So, I would say that philanthropy is like a really big part of our model, and always has been. We have a sort of small, but like, really useful and productive pool of donors. And because it's quite small, like and manageable, it's fairly easy to maintain. And, you know, I think we have a fundraising officer who manages those relationships alongside me. So we have that capacity in that sort of sense. I think that we also, because of our open space work, we kind of realised that that was also something that we should be like, financially exploiting, in some sort of sense. And so we that that has a really big contribution to our to our, to our income, and our open space producer, Varshney, she's in charge of not only delivering that program, but for hitting that target. So I worked really closely with her to achieve that. And the TTR, you know, kind of increase and maintain … maintenance at that level has been super, super useful for us. I mean, the thing I would say about TTR, is I, you know, in my previous work, I always sort of treated it as a bit of a treat, rather than a sort of thing that you encompass into the budget, and the sort of way that we are working now. And I think that this is I think this is applicable to a lot of organizations, like people are keeping that in their project budget, you know, they don't see it for another year or whatever. But they're still having that as part of their budget, which I, I would improbable, I would like to move away from that model, I would like to sort of, I'd like to go back to it being something that we get, and we can then put back into our complete projects fun so that we can, you know, maintain the work. I think that again, the artistic team because of the work that they've done over a 30 year period, they have such a diverse range of connections. So you know, we have people that love our work in America. And that's not just the opera that's just like a variety of our work. We've talked a lot around America and internationally generally. We've got opera fans like Philip Glass, opera friends, we've got, you know, Lee Simpson fans, we've got Phelim McDermott fans, and we have actually just Improbable fans. So it's sort of it's we're now at the point now where what I'm trying to balance when it comes to this capital project that we're about to undertake is how can we keep the donors that we have currently sort of focused on the core contribution that they're giving, but then how can we think about opening up this new part of relationships that will go towards the gathering or will continue to go towards the shows, I think, you know, philanthropy will be a really big thing for us. And, again, you know, with this capital project, it will only work if I can make the business model work from earned income, you know, like that creation centre, we want it to be for artists, we want it for people to be able to make big bold work. But at the end of the day, I've got to be able to, you know, keep the lights on and pay for us to be able to give that free time. So I've got to then come up with a model where some people are paying some money, you know, and because it'll be a brilliant, flexible, sort of like, technically, like innovative space, and people will, I hope, snap our hands off for it. But I've got to do the work to build those relationships now. So that when the building is built in six years time, I'm like, Yeah, okay. I know that 10 weeks out of the year, it might not be that I'm plucking that out of the air,  I have these people coming in to use the space. So you know, arts council is our main is our main grant, really, I mean, we're starting to do we're starting to dip into trusts and foundations. A bit more than we have previously, which I think will be really useful for core stuff, but it's not, you know, as you know, not something to be relied upon.

Tom: Yeah, I think it's really interesting what you said a few minutes ago about how Improbable kind of is in a lot of spheres, Improbable is in the more established office space, but also you do Devoted and Disgruntled every year and you do artist development, and then you're working with Zoo Co at the Barbican, you know, exists on multiple scales. And I think one of the strengths of Improbable has always been that, actually in probables, the work that impro makes is defined by a creative process, as opposed to like an aesthetic. So it's, it's not like every Improbable show looks the same, which is actually often like, resists, like good business planning. Because what happened is that asset it works really well in a certain area. But actually, it doesn't carry to other areas sometimes where it's because you recognize an Improbable show by like, it was made in this way you recognize it by process a lot of the time, it means that once you've done a big opera, and then go and do a studio shows somewhere, actually, you don't lose the opera people cause you've you've kind of gone over to your studio work. And I think it's I think it's one of the really key things that we don't often impress upon, like, more emerging companies a lot of the time, which is that your artistic process is just as important as what your shows are like, and kind of the aesthetic of the product at the end.

Ellie: Yeah, I completely agree. And I must admit, it wasn't until the pandemic when I was at Barrel Organ, and we sort of me, Ally, and Rosie just completely changed the way that the sort of company worked, that I realised, oh, god process my thing. Like, that's what I'm interested in. You know, I think I for a long time, you know, when we when I was doing my MA, I remember Chris, our course director would be like, what's your thing, and I'd be like, I didn't, I didn't know. And actually, I understood eventually, that it was process and actually, so coming into Improbable, and at first being like opera, what, it's actually just being in a room with Lee and Phelim and to see and Matilda and seeing that process, not just Yeah, happen in the rehearsal room, but happen sort of every day running through the organisation. And I think that I had to work that out by myself, and actually, I think that if producers and I said this to a producer recently, I said, think about process, think about what that means to you, and what that means to the way that you run a company. And it will allow you to think sort of more broadly about your business models, your finance plans, who you want on your board, like all that sort of stuff.

Tom: Yeah, I think it's almost like, it's a really interesting thing to almost resist the like, capitalist logic of like, make a product and work and how to sell it, because all you're doing is go and we're gonna execute a process and do a process and actually Improbable a lot of the time you make a process visible, there's a lot of content on your website about how shows are made. And those kinds of things people know that you use open space, because you use it in other areas and things like that. And actually to consider like, how you get stakeholders to, to give to process as opposed to necessarily product is like a really interesting challenge. And maybe like the strength of your philanthropy comes from the fact that, you know, people can look at improbable and go, yes, the show, which is a huge Opera but there's also these moments of kind of less established work on loss of vulnerability and the identity of the company. You know, the company is like a person in the sense of like, there's a huge establishedstuff, and then there's the small kind of risk taking, figuring things out. And it's almost like, you know, how we interact with people in that way? You know, and I think it makes donors and individual givers. I think it makes it easier for them to warm to an organisation like Improbable a lot of the time.

Ellie: Yeah, I agree. I think it's definitely a challenge though, in the sense of when we talk about the gathering, which is the name for the the project that will you know, a capital project will be part of that. We talk about how can you make a well, how can it be an artistic project? How can the journey to creating a home for Improbable like, that's an artistic project for us? You know, there'll be the capital project that sits within it. But that's not the steer, right? It's the, it's, it's the artistic project of telling that story and making that thing happen. And we talk a lot about the gathering show, which will become some sort of show in some sort of form. But like Phelim, Lee and Matilda, like, already feel very clear about what that is, because it's basically the process that we're undertaking, and then something will come out of it. And actually, when you think about stuff like that, and you sort of you kind of remove this sort of sense of, oh, God, what about the budget and the business model and all that sort of stuff? And you think about it in a creative way? It just, it's so freeing, and yeah, I worry, I will never be able to work in any other different way. I mean, nor should I have to, but it's sort of, yeah, it's kind of amazing.

Tom: Great. So we've talked a little bit about how kind of incredibly Improbable is doing, but in terms of running a company the size of Improbable, what do you think the biggest challenge is right now, for you in terms of resource in the organisation in the work? And do you think that is having some effect on your output, your activity and the art that you're making?

Ellie: Um, I mean, I would say that when it comes to resource, I would say that the first thing that I think about is people, right? And I don't mean that in terms of capacity of like the number of people that you have on your team, I think about the people that are in the organisation currently, who don't have enough capacity, like we're dealing with our own life wellbeing stuff, and like, how are we meant to, you know, go on this journey and sustain this journey, and also, like, live in the world that is existing right now, and will continue to exist, I think that that's, that, for me, is a really big challenge. And sort of, you know, Phelim always talked to me about how my job is sort of is the sort of steadier of the organisation, it's not the person who makes like big moves, like all the time, it's someone who like sits and observes, and sort of like manoeuvres things in a sort of delicate way. Because we are all humans living in a world that is delicate, and we are therefore delicate. So I think that, you know, that's that, that in itself, it's not, it's not a financial challenge as such, but it is really, because if we had loads of money, then we'd go, like, just get another person in great, and then we'll figure that out. And sort of to that, you know, we are very lucky to be NPO funded, but our, you know, our grant doesn't cover our core costs at all, we received an inflationary increase in 2021, but you know, sort of not really sort of, kind of in the years prior to that. So, as the company sort of grows, because of necessity, and, you know, all the economic stuff in the world that goes alongside that, it's, we're still receiving the same, same grant level, which is, which is hard. And, and so I think that, you know, for me, there's a lot of thought about how we can go on the next part of the journey go well, you know, with the gathering, but also kind of protect our, our current team, and, you know, future iterations of that. So I think that that feels like a challenge. I also think, you know, as you sort of mentioned, our turnover is relatively small. So I think this year, we're sort of sitting at about 750. And, in order to undertake this project, because I've been doing the budgeting for it, you know, sort of the past couple of weeks, we're going to have to grow substantially, you know, and so to go from a turnover of 700, to, you know, a few mil like that may not seem like a big jump, but actually with the infrastructure that we have in place, like, I have to think about how we can manage that. And luckily, we have an amazing finance manager Susie Italiano. Shout out to Susie, who has worked really closely with me to sort of put that structure in place, but it's sort of, you know, if you don't take that time to do that, like, you could end up in real sort of sticky situation. So I think that, I think, yeah, I think those things feel challenging. I also think that, you know, when you are a company who hasn't had a home for a long time, who is iterative, who is process lead, who is agile, when you like physically put down bricks and mortar, that in itself is a challenge, because you are like solidifying yourself and you're going like we're here now, we have responsibilities. Lee talks about it as our grown up project, which I find really funny. And it's like as if you haven’t been a grown up for  however many years but I get his sentiment like it's sort of it's sort of laying down your responsibilities. So I think that, you know, we're doing something really ambitious and amazing, but also kind of insane in a sort of really turbulent time. So I think that, you know, I think our challenges are not dissimilar to any other person's challenges. I think that, you know, I speak to all of these exec directors, and we're experiencing very similar things. And I think, fortunately for us, as you know, with the transfer program, when we opted into that we're already moving. I think the brilliance of Lee and Phelim and Matilda is that they always, you know, touch wood, seem to be one step ahead of the game, which I very much appreciate.

Tom: Great. Yeah, I think that's going to be a really common thing that I hear over these chats, which is about NPO grants now don't cover all of core costs a lot of the time. And so actually, if you were doing a capital project previously, you might have seen that at least the NPO would preserve your core team and that function would remain. So you could shoulder risk somewhere else. But actually, a lot of organisations have to shoulder risk within their core team as well as doing some kind of development, and that might be building a building. Some organisations are going to a huge business model up people right now, because either they've lost NPO or audience numbers are down or they're having to create new strands of income and actually not having that stability around your core is like a huge challenge because you're kind of sustaining risk in multiple areas at once. And I think it's, you know, it's often coming down on EDs and, you know, the wrinkles of all the EDs out there to like hold space for that a lot of the time, you know. 

Ellie: Yeah, yeah, totally. And I think that, you know, when I was brought on board, our strategic lead for the Gathering, Rachel, was also brought on board. So my job, you know, the predecessor, my predecessor also held the Gathering. And then when they re-recruited for my role, they realised, you know, quite smartly that not one person can't do the whole thing. And, you know, I was saying to someone earlier that me and Rachel, who's our strategic lead, like we compliment each other very well, because she's like very detail oriented, like she's a real thinker, like she's got a real artistic brain, whereas I'm more strategic and sort of, yeah, bigger picture, and we compliment each other really well. And I think that project really needs those two, those two headspaces. But that, you know, that was a huge investment from the company. The board had to sort of really look at itself and go, okay, are we actually going to do this? Like, are we actually going to do this? And if we are, then we sort of have to put our, you know, limited resources where our mouth is. And, you know, with that, that sort of increased our staff salaries sort of a lot. And we're not getting any more money for it. So it's sort of, you're having to, the thing I find, and I've found this sort of a whole way through my career is it's, you're having to do the detail, it's when you write an Arts Council application, and you've got to like do all the figuring out and do all the detailed work, and then you get the money. So it's like, it's sort of this weird, yeah, it's this weird way of doing things, but which, which can feel challenging when you get those knockbacks. And when you sort of, it doesn't sort of bear fruit, but yeah, we are having to sort of bear the brunt of that, of that, of that financial responsibility. 

Tom: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm conscious of time and that I should let you get on to get back to bearing the brunt of all of that. But I've just got one last question, which is that I think I've always associated Improbable with really open communication and, you know, use of open space and improv means it's often really easy to have a conversation with someone at Improbable. And, you know, within Improbable, how do you manage those relationships, those conversations internally about the relationship between art and money? Is there like a, a top tip, a thing you would suggest of like, consider this, do this, when you're trying to have the conversation about how art and money interact?

Ellie: Yeah, that's a, that's an interesting question. I think that it's all about relationships and understanding people. Like this whole job is about that. I think that, you know, if someone doesn't respond well to you going in and be like, I need to cut the budget, I need to do this, then you're not going to be able to achieve what you want to achieve. Like, ultimately, you have to meet in the middle. We have this conversation a lot where it's like, it should never be seen as the office team versus the artistic team. Like they are all one team and you are all striving towards the same mission, singing to the same songbook. And so I think once you understand that, and once you understand, and that's how open space helps that, it allows us to have those really frank open conversations. And, you know, at the end of the day, like, Lee and Phelim were in this because they want to make great art, but it's not because they want to be, you know, sort of these like CEOs who demand that their art is made at any cost. And so I think that, and they, they, they truly believe in their team and they truly believe that we're doing everything we can in order to achieve that. So it's not really an easy answer to the question. The secret is the people in that organisation. Like if you have the right match of people that are all working together, then I think that that is the solution to it. And I think that, you know, that, that sort of, it makes me think about just a wider just sector conversation about who holds that power. Like power is such a thing when it comes to art and money. And, and if you're not all on the same page, and I think it's, if you're in a bigger organisation, it makes it so much harder because there's so many other channels to go through. But when you can sit down as a group of six of you, and go like, right, this is what we want to achieve. This is what we want it to look like. I'm bringing my skill set to tell you what that means financially, what the timeline of it is. Let's have a conversation about it. You can't do that in a big building most of the time, because it's just, it's a ship. And so it's, it can't be, it can't be agile. So it's just, you know, I would say that. 

Tom: Amazing. Thank you so much for your time. It has been a joy. And I can't wait till we get to chat again.

Ellie: Yeah, oh my gosh, thank you.